I now have a Patreon Page where you guys can support me while I work on Vanilla WoW leveling guides every day.  I appreciate all of you who support me on there, it means a lot to me right now.  Doing this full time is taxing on my financial situation.  My goal is to make the best Vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web and the donations keep me going at it healthfully.  There is also cool rewards you get in return for donating.  Thanks!
Nov 15 Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but... The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced, and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.Hopera237 Nov 15
Nov 15 Thank you for the demo I just want to say thank you to Blizzard for the demo. I seriously had so much fun - so much more fun than I've had trying to play wow in YEARS. I know not everything was 100% accurate to classic, but it was just a demo so that doesn't worry me too much. I still had a million times more fun playing that demo than retail in any case. THE THINGS I LOVED: (1) I died so much. Like... SO MUCH, and that's alright! Once I finally finished whatever it was I was doing, it felt really rewarding! My group and I were actually laughing when we party wiped. No one insulted anyone or pointed blame, we just had fun. (2) Things took time. The journey mattered, it wasn't just about hitting end game asap. I felt accomplished at the end of all those time consuming things I did. (3) I had fun exploring! I spent so much time just running around, not knowing what the heck to do, but that was FUN. I had FUN getting lost and finding treasure chests. (4) Seeing the classic models again! Tbh, the races all look rubbery and stupid now... I honestly think the old racial looks are nicer. (5) Reading quests was necessary again, so the story mattered to me. No one booted me from the party for "taking too long" because I wanted to read. (6) The community! There were actually people doing RP stuff and talking in character. Everyone in the chat was just having fun. (7) All of the inconveniences - running out of mana, no mounts, running slowly on foot, little or no flightpaths... These things are fun because they're not just handed to me. I had to work hard and play the game to get things. (8) People constantly buffed other players, because that small boost could be the reason you didn't die when a roaming centaur attacked you from behind. THE THINGS I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT: (1) I've heard rumors about possible sharding... PLEASE DO NOT SHARD. PLEASE. I can understand if it's temporary just for the initial launch, and only for starting zones. I think that is a decent enough compromise for the inevitable problem of overpopulation for the first few weeks. But if we're talking about full scale realm sharding, PLEASE DO NOT! Cross-realm features and sharding are what ruined communities in wow, same with dungeon finder and other such things, and these features are very unwanted for a classic player like me. (2) The elite raptor I tamed as a hunter was not stronger than the non-elite raptor I tamed at the same level. In classic, elite animals had better stats as hunter pets once tamed, compared to the same non-elite version of that animal at the same level. (3) I think the mana and health regen rates were a bit too high? I'm not certain, but if they were I honestly want them to be genuine. It's okay if it's hard - challenges make games fun! Anyway, thank you again! I had a ton of fun, and as long as classic is true to classic with all of its pros AND cons, I feel certain that it will be a success.Sarai10 Nov 15
I am currently working full time on my Vanilla WoW leveling guides.  Soon there will be a 1-60 speed leveling guide for Alliance, along with in-game guide versions available for my members area.  As of right now, there is no members area, but if you would like to show support for my efforts into this project, you can simply donate to me via Patreon if you like (you will get some cool rewards in return).  Or you can donate directly with PayPal if you like.  All donations are highly appreciated and they will only motivate me more to continue making the best vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web.

Nov 15 C2C interview with Theloras aka ME Hey everyone, Earlier today I spent some time with the Man, the Myth, the Legend who is Countdown to Classic and we spent some time discussing what I and many other Paladins are most looking forward to in the upcoming WoW Classic demo that will be available during Blizzcon: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/325334774 Since it looks like just Elwynn Forest for the Alliance and Durotar for the Horde will be available to play/test during the upcoming demo/beta, only early level gameplay will be possible to test at any length. But even with that limitation, a major core mechanic for Paladins will be able to be tested and theory crafted. I am of course referring to JUDGEMENT STACKING which I outlined in the thread below along with several other mechanics/talents/items that are still lingering and unanswered questions: Proc Items + Spell Dmg + JotC stacking? https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760205815#post-1 TLDR - I found actual Vanilla era evidence (posted in the thread above) which stated that all ranks of each individual Judgement stacked with one another - Judgement of Light (JoL), Judgement of Wisdom (JoW) and most critically in this case, Judgement of the Crusader (JotC): With pvp gloves, libram and 3/3 imp JotC = +829 holy damage JotC R1 +79 Holy Damage JotC R2 +90 Holy Damage JotC R3 +113 Holy Damage JotC R4 +148 Holy Damage JotC R5 +182 Holy Damage JotC R6 +217 Holy Damage Since rank 1 Seal/Judgement of the Crusader is learned at level 6 and rank 2 is learned at level 12, if Elwynn Forest ends up being the only zone open for testing, then reaching level 12 is definitely doable from quest turnins and XP from mob kills. Which will allow 2 Paladins to join as a group and coordinate each of them putting up rank 1 and rank 2 of Judgement of the Crusader accordingly. If this proves to be correct, then it would forever change the LOLRET Meta with the simple fact that the more Retribution Paladins you have in a group/raid, the more powerful each of them then become and would also allow other class/specs come to the forefront as well namely Discipline Priests spamming Smite. At any rate, the twitch interview link is above - we had some audio technical issues at the start so if you fast forward to the 5:00 mark - you can hear the full interview. PS as a bonus, later on in the interview the Crazy OOMkin named Keftenk makes a special guest appearance :) https://twitter.com/count2classicTheloras111 Nov 15


The Horde levels 50-60 guide has been rewritten and revamped.  My 1-60 Horde leveling guide is now completely updated for the 1.12 Drums of War patch.  As you can see it is about 15% larger than the 40-50 guide (single largest guide page yet).  There is also a lot of route changes.  I moved the entire Silithus section from level 55 to level 58, which allowed me to include a lot more quests for that zone.  There is also a lot of other improvement to the route, including adding a lot more quests into the guide, mostly from Moonglade, Silithus and Eastern Plaguelands.  This will make the final level 59 grind much shorter. 

The Horde 12-20 (Barrens + Stonetalon Mountains) guide has been rewritten and revamped.  In addition, there has been numerous tweaks to the speedrun route to make things faster and easier to follow.  Also, in case you haven't noticed I am now adding about 40% more info per step and redoing all the images.  Unlike with my previous vanilla guides, I am now giving a brief explanation of where to go and what to do with each step along with any other helpful tips.
Nov 15 Why was it "easy" for Nost, but hard for Bliz During Blizzcon we were told how challenging (at least that's how it came off) it was for Blizzard to create a working version of Classic... but Nostalrius, with no ties to Blizzard, was able to make a relatively bug free version of Vanilla? When I say "bug free" I know there was "a lot" of issues, but nothing an entire team at Blizzard couldn't fix. Wouldn't it be less work?Goró64 Nov 15
As you have known, official site had merged three realms into one realm two weeks ago (June 6). Light’s hope will launch new realm – Northdale this week (June 23). Official site is laying out plans for the timeline, and doing its utmost to ensure as smooth a launch as possible. Here mmogah.com will guide you to the new realm – Northdale’s timeline.
The Horde 12-20 (Barrens + Stonetalon Mountains) guide has been rewritten and revamped.  In addition, there has been numerous tweaks to the speedrun route to make things faster and easier to follow.  Also, in case you haven't noticed I am now adding about 40% more info per step and redoing all the images.  Unlike with my previous vanilla guides, I am now giving a brief explanation of where to go and what to do with each step along with any other helpful tips.

Nov 15 Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but... The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced, and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.Hopera237 Nov 15
I joined twitch in 2013 with the gamer name of FuriousPaul and I streamed speedruns of the classic Castlevania games from 2013 - 2017. Lately my streams have died down quite a bit due to working on Classic WoW leveling guides every day.  Although I may come on occasionally and play a random game for fun on my Twitch stream.  I talk a lot about WoW speedrunning on my channel, so feel free to follow and hang out to discuss vanilla WoW if you like.  Classic WoW will be my main focus for a long time.  Unfortunately I will have to wait until Classic WoW comes out before I start streaming it. 

Use (“V”) to show all the patients status on screen. You will have special triage bandages (add them to your action bar/hot key) which should be applied to Critically injured, then Badly injured, and then injured. Once you started treating a patient do not interupt, just finish treating that patient before moving on to another patient. You should select your next patient before your are finished with the first one, then all you have to do is hit you hot key to start the next one.
Through out the game, the quest log will be capped to 20 many times.  The guide makes use of maximizing the total amount of quests you can accept at once.  Because of this it is important to follow the guide exactly and only accept quests if the guide tells you to so you won't run into issues not being able to accept a quest.  If you do accept a quest that is not listed in the guide, write it down because you may need to abandon it in order to keep following the guide if your quest log is full.
Nov 15 Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but... The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced, and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.Hopera237 Nov 15

All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.

I joined twitch in 2013 with the gamer name of FuriousPaul and I streamed speedruns of the classic Castlevania games from 2013 - 2017. Lately my streams have died down quite a bit due to working on Classic WoW leveling guides every day.  Although I may come on occasionally and play a random game for fun on my Twitch stream.  I talk a lot about WoW speedrunning on my channel, so feel free to follow and hang out to discuss vanilla WoW if you like.  Classic WoW will be my main focus for a long time.  Unfortunately I will have to wait until Classic WoW comes out before I start streaming it.


WoW: Classic is scheduled for August 27 (technically August 26 if you're in the Americas). The soonest that you can play it is starting in May, during Blizzard's scheduled stress tests. To opt-in you must have an active subscription on your Battle.net account. If you do, go to Account Management and select the Wow Classic beta. Keep in mind, there will be level caps during the test. The schedule is as follows: 

Players will start from level 1 and will progress through level 60 with real, Blizzlike x1 rates. Old PvP battlegrounds are: Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin and the famous 40vs40 players Alterac Valley where battles were known to last more than 24 hours. 20 and 40 man raids will be available for Molten Core, Zul Gurub, Blackwing Lair, Ahn'Qiraj 20 & 40 and the original Naxxramas raid in the Eastern Plaguelands.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15

Nov 15 Managing your time and Classic So how are you guys thinking you're going to do it? I know when I played Vannila, I sunk so much time into it as I didn't have any responsibilites. Nowadays I work 24 on, 48 off (which is actually good, except for raid days) and have a wife. I figure a lot of you will be in the same boat. That may be a good thing as it can slow the pace a bit.Crupzz4 Nov 15
Nov 15 To all of you who keep talking $$$ Please do explain why a company should waste money to appease you ? I commonly see things like "zomg blikky made 12 bazillion dollars last financial year" "haii why so cheap daddy blizz, please release 500 low pop servers on release , so you can spend the next year wasting money and resources " Grow up. Thanks.Azerothian30 Nov 15
I wonder if they’ll execute this similar to Jagex does OSRS. Let the players vote and once all phases cleared and of articles have been introduced, vote new WoW Classic articles to be inserted. There are a couple large ones that I think should be changed, like warrior taunts being able to miss and certain classes only being plain unplayable. Changes could correct a number of the issues that are bigger, and eventually the player base will quit seeing these things and just become irritated and need them to be fixed. Give everyone a couple of buy classic wow gold months of nostalgia that is pure , then resolve a number of these things.
While our initial effort helped us determine the experience we wanted to provide, this second prototype really defined how we’d get there. Starting from a modern architecture—with all its security and stability changes—means the team’s efforts can be focused on pursuing an authentic classic experience. Any differences in behavior between our development builds and the patch 1.12 reference can be systematically cataloged and corrected, while still operating from a foundation that’s stable and secure.
Nov 15 Article Explains Why No Communication So this is why we aren't getting updates, communication, customer service, etc, that Blizzard has provided in the past: https://www.influencerupdate.biz/news/67499/blizzards-saralyn-smith-the-power-is-with-the-influencers-we-all-know-that-its-the-age-of-influencers/ A youtuber actually breaks it down here for analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEaIAPoCDPc What an absurd joke. If this is going to be a successful game in ~8 months, we need the communication to be open, flowing back and forth, as it was in 2004-2006. Telling yourself otherwise is a lie. There's absolutely no reason third parties should be filters between Blizzard and the Players/Customers.Bynisarron31 Nov 15
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
The Horde 12-20 (Barrens + Stonetalon Mountains) guide has been rewritten and revamped.  In addition, there has been numerous tweaks to the speedrun route to make things faster and easier to follow.  Also, in case you haven't noticed I am now adding about 40% more info per step and redoing all the images.  Unlike with my previous vanilla guides, I am now giving a brief explanation of where to go and what to do with each step along with any other helpful tips.
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
The vanilla WoW Horde leveling guide you see on this site was originally made back in 2006 by Joana (AKA Mancow, or FuriousPaul).  The guides have been tweaked many times over the years to make things "faster".  The leveling guides were made because of all the messages I got from people asking me how I was able to level up so quickly on new realms.  I was first to level 60 on 7 different realms (3 with Mancow and 4 with Joana), even winning Blizzard's "First to Level 50" contest they held back in 2006.
Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314 Nov 15
Nov 15 Loot sharing. Fools How stupid is the community about loot sharing? You know there is master loot right? Stop being dumb guys like holy crap. You also know that if you're the guy setting up a group or joining a group you have a option not to run or you can pick player's of different armor types... If you're a cloth wearer you just don't run or set up a group with other cloth wearers. Like this is something so simple and the community can't graps anything. I feel bad for blizzard sometimes with having to deal with brain power of this community. The community: "Oh, I didn't think about that. Derp, I'm an idiot."Plewtoe23 Nov 15

Classic WoW is the highly anticipated, upcoming (re) release of the original, first World of Warcraft version, known as Classic and by it's other popular ice-cream like name: Vanilla WoW. Dubbed Retail Classic, or Official Classic by the playerbase - it was finally announced by Blizzard in November 2017, after a lot of pressure from the Private Server World of Warcraft community, since the latter's shutdown of the most popular Private Server called Nostalrius which featured the first WoW version in two separate PvP and PvE servers.
To gain gold in World of Warcraft, you will primarily be grinding professions which are fantastic for receiving rewards. Mining is an example of a great profession at an early-game level. While Herbalism is actually the best gathering profession, the issue is it uses consumables which can make the profession rather costly, with the investment required.
Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314 Nov 15
Even though the guide was developed with a hunter, the guide can be followed by any class.  Except you have to do your class's quests which aren't a whole lot.  I do have full intention to make my guide friendly with all classes in the future by listing all of their steps as well.  There will be a toggle that allows you to show which class's steps you want to see in the guide.  But this is coming later.
Nov 7, 2017 Welcome - Please Read! Welcome to the Classic Discussion forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss all aspects of World of Warcraft: Classic with your fellow players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct and guidelines before posting. Code of Conduct: http://us.battle.net/en/community/conduct Getting the Most Out of the Forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2016792409 Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community.Ornyx1 Nov 7, 2017
File data: This is often very dense data like 3D models, textures, animations and terrain. Our user interface is built up from XML and Lua files. Many of the art files do not use the same file formats that commercial art tools spit out. Our build pipeline takes these raw art files and translates them into something optimized for our game to read and process.

Nov 15 Spell Mechanic Questions and Hopes on Items I am not necessarily looking for any discourse that would lead to an answer, but hopefully this would gain enough traction that Blizzard might see it, and offer some insight to intended function come summer 2019. I know there is a current wall of text somewhere regarding questions on almost every item with a spell damage effect and whether or not they will be granted coefficients from character gear grand spell damage. I noticed one in particular that was left out and wanted to reiterate my personal favorites. Shard of the Fallen Star: Originally benefited in part or completely 1:1 ratio from spell damage and was capable of critting. It was nerfed in patch 2.0 which is after classic wow content. In the spirit of keeping things as they were, do you think Blizzard will keep this mechanic or change it to a post nerf state which although is not classic wow maybe seen as a balanced fix. Weapon List: Hand of Ragnaros, Netzerek the Blood Drinker, Corrupted Ashbringer, Shadowstrike - all received 2:1 coefficent originally in classic. I believe they were a little too strong but did not receive any nerf to my knowledge. Do you think these will remain as it was or be changed to satisfy the hopes for balance?Tunnelboy6 Nov 15
I now have a Patreon Page where you guys can support me while I work on Vanilla WoW leveling guides every day.  I appreciate all of you who support me on there, it means a lot to me right now.  Doing this full time is taxing on my financial situation.  My goal is to make the best Vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web and the donations keep me going at it healthfully.  There is also cool rewards you get in return for donating.  Thanks!
Nov 15 [OCE] Alliance Late night PvE will be a hard core focused PvE raiding guild. GOALS To clear all content efficiently and quickly To have fun To be the best we can be To clear MC during week 2- RAID TIMES raid times will be held in GMT+9, this is Japan's time zone for reference, this does NOT follow day light savings. for reference, at this moment these times would be 11:30 in Sydney, and 7:30AM EST USA. MON 9:30PM-12:30AM WED 9:30PM-12:30AM THUR 9:30PM-12:30AM-may schedule a 4th day during progression if needed- 20 man raids will be help on off days, or raid days if all content has been cleared. again to be clear, this schedule will not follow DSL, so your start time may move 1 hour forward or backwards during the year. EXPECTATIONS I want my raiders to be willing. You do not have to be a former pro raider, you do not have to have vanilla experience. While these things are welcomed and I do share these qualities. All i need from you is the willingness to learn and become better. Give me your best and I'll give you quality leadership that has proven time and time again to down bosses and push through content. Effort will always be rewarded. LOOT RULES I will be using my own system style of loot council. It has worked well for me in the past and I will continue to use it. I can explain parts of it in detail on discord if you wish. ROSTER This is a brand new endeavor, I will be main tanking and I am looking for others to help me push this to a competent raid team. I look forward to making fresh connections and creating great bonds with all of you. ABOUT ME I have been playing warcraft since vanilla. I climbed higher and higher into better and better guilds until I eventually landed in a top 10 US guild during MoP. before WOD released I essentially stopped hardcore raiding and went more casual. I am now looking to get back into a more hardcore scene with like minded individuals who enjoy the prestige of completing content quickly. CONTACT BATTLENET Firefly#1855 DISCORD Hatchmark#2695 the discord has lots of links to video guides and other sources to help get you ready for classicHatchmark8 Nov 15
Once we had our starting point, we began taking stock of what we had in the source code and what we could make available, which included restoring the original development database from archival backups. After stitching various key pieces together, we had a locally rebuilt version of Patch 1.12 running internally. The team could create characters and do basic questing and leveling—and dying, which we did many times. For testing purposes. Obviously.

Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15

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