Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314 Nov 15
The vanilla WoW Horde leveling guide you see on this site was originally made back in 2006 by Joana (AKA Mancow, or FuriousPaul).  The guides have been tweaked many times over the years to make things "faster".  The leveling guides were made because of all the messages I got from people asking me how I was able to level up so quickly on new realms.  I was first to level 60 on 7 different realms (3 with Mancow and 4 with Joana), even winning Blizzard's "First to Level 50" contest they held back in 2006.
Nov 15 Guild Banks Pt. 14 So let's take our minds off subs and sharding and have a nice classic discussion about guild banks. Guild banks are still by far the least impactful on gameplay and most spirit of Vanilla community change one could request. Not only that the log keeps officers and gm's honest. Without logs they are free to skim off the top of donations and trivialize their epic mount purchase. Thoughts?Padrepwn91 Nov 15
Nov 15 I pay $12 for FFXIV. Why pay $15 for Classic? I copied this from a reply I made with slight edits, but I feel this should be brought up in a post. I'm mostly a FFXIV player nowadays. I used to play classic a lot and have only played modern WoW on and off because friends kept bugging me to come back... and then we would all quit a month or so in. I currently pay $12 for FFXIV because they have an option to pay 12 for having only 1 character per server. Paying $15 dollars for an old game that was already released is just too much. I don't like modern WoW at all. I don't like the changes they are making to 'their classic'. If I have to pay $15 dollars for a game I won't play and a modern Blizzard's take on classic WoW, then I'm not going to pay anything and go on private servers. I don't like private servers either because the people running it are often corrupt and you never know when the servers will be shut down, but I am also not willing to shell out $15 for something that isn't worth it. If I can pay $12 to play FFXIV which is a modern mmo that receives constant updates, I shouldn't have to pay $15 to play an old MMO that's already been released and is getting unnecessary changes.Destroynme111 Nov 15

Nov 15 5 reasons I'm doubtful of WoW Classic I played WoW from patch 1.4 until Sunwell. And I'm not convinced on Classic. 1. I understand nostalgia for the gameplay, and it was a great game, by I don't get why people would want the old graphics when it looked outdated back then. Someone will level a warrior or rogue at snail pace and those 2004 boring graphics will reinforce his perception that the game is bad because it looks bad. 2. The lack of a second talent tree. This was the most demanded feature and I don't see people sticking with the game without it. 3. This has always been in the game, but weekly resets, I never got it, let people able to reset raids. Maybe have a 2 hours cooldown, but if a guild wants to farm a raid every night, or twice on a sunday, or farm the first 3 bosses of MC, let them. Gearing 40-60 people with weekly resets, in this day and age, good luck. 4. Dungeon finder, not sure people will like that, again bad decision. 5. The graphics, no seriously, this is bad on every level of game design, it just make the game look worse, a straight negative with no benefit.Pekuakami24 Nov 15
File data: This is often very dense data like 3D models, textures, animations and terrain. Our user interface is built up from XML and Lua files. Many of the art files do not use the same file formats that commercial art tools spit out. Our build pipeline takes these raw art files and translates them into something optimized for our game to read and process.
Nov 15 Managing your time and Classic So how are you guys thinking you're going to do it? I know when I played Vannila, I sunk so much time into it as I didn't have any responsibilites. Nowadays I work 24 on, 48 off (which is actually good, except for raid days) and have a wife. I figure a lot of you will be in the same boat. That may be a good thing as it can slow the pace a bit.Crupzz4 Nov 15
Our initial runs exposed a few (expected) issues: the game sometimes crashed, didn’t recognize our modern video cards, and was incompatible with our current login system. That first pass also couldn’t support any of our modern security and anti-cheating capabilities. Clearly we had a lot of work to do to make WoW Classic live up to the Blizzard standard of quality, and deliver the experience players want.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15
Use (“V”) to show all the patients status on screen. You will have special triage bandages (add them to your action bar/hot key) which should be applied to Critically injured, then Badly injured, and then injured. Once you started treating a patient do not interupt, just finish treating that patient before moving on to another patient. You should select your next patient before your are finished with the first one, then all you have to do is hit you hot key to start the next one.
Nov 15 Guild Banks Pt. 14 So let's take our minds off subs and sharding and have a nice classic discussion about guild banks. Guild banks are still by far the least impactful on gameplay and most spirit of Vanilla community change one could request. Not only that the log keeps officers and gm's honest. Without logs they are free to skim off the top of donations and trivialize their epic mount purchase. Thoughts?Padrepwn91 Nov 15
The vanilla WoW Horde leveling guide you see on this site was originally made back in 2006 by Joana (AKA Mancow, or FuriousPaul).  The guides have been tweaked many times over the years to make things "faster".  The leveling guides were made because of all the messages I got from people asking me how I was able to level up so quickly on new realms.  I was first to level 60 on 7 different realms (3 with Mancow and 4 with Joana), even winning Blizzard's "First to Level 50" contest they held back in 2006.
Raiditem owns a top-class raid team who has over 10 years' experience of helping WoW gamers get all the WoW items they want. At Blizzcon 2017 Blizzard unveiled their plan on the development of WoW classic vanilla server, check out the official announcement video on YouTube for more details. As the most trustworthy site, raiditem.com will offer possibly the cheapest WOW Classic items including WoW Vanilla server gold, WoW Classic mounts, WoW legacy servers boe items, and other WoW Classic server service once the Vanilla WoW server officially releases.
Nov 15 Professions Hey guys. Can you think of good items that you crafted and lasted for several levels at least? I have played on private servers and with 1.12 itemization, there was barely anything that I could use for even 3 levels. I have leveled up a leartheworker and only thing I remember using was Deviate Scale Belt. Yes, it's very decent and could last a few levels. But later, there are some blue gloves which are fine, but nothing brilliant. And "Guardian Belt"(+6 spirit, +6 stamina) is pathetic for a blue. I remember trying to craft Robe of power as Tailor for a mage but it wasn't that brilliant either, maybe you digress. :) Sure, at level 60, there are nice robes for tailors but before that, do you think using the 1.12 client diminishes the role of crafting professions for leveling? Imagine ability to craft some brilliant item(for each profession) at level 30 that would last full ten levels just like Warrior's Whirlwind Axe, would be decent, no? Warlocks also have similar quest for Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe, but for classes that don't have such class quests would be an enormous boost.Holylr34 Nov 15
Some players choose to take a slightly alternative approach to their gold farming. This approach can take an extensive amount of time and dedication. Many people choose to train a ton of alts, solely for the purpose of making money and multi-tasking. In World of Warcraft Classic, professions are usually paired together. For example, if you’re training alchemy, you will need herbs to create consumables (e.g. flasks) that are used for raiding. An intelligent and observant player could seize this knowledge by creating one alchemy alt and one herbalism alt, swapping items as needed between each other. This fully mitigates the fees by the Auction House, which means your profit is maximised. Another complimentary combination you can use is skinning and tailoring, or cooking and fishing.
Greetings! Development of World of Warcraft Classic is underway, and we’re very excited to share some of the challenges and solutions we’re working on. As we mentioned last BlizzCon, the process of restoring the classic game is not straightforward, and it’s important to us to take the time and effort to get it right—this includes poring over numerous game versions, data, and code; meticulously scrutinizing all the changes we’ve made over the years. Rest assured: The WoW Classic team is hard at work making it a reality, and we’re at a point in development where we’re ready to share some of the things we’ve been working on.
There are more passive methods to gain wow classic gold, but these are slower. For example, many people choose to fish in places like Tanaris, or kill Harpies in Feralas and loot items such as mageweaves. These are rather AFK-able, but again, not as rewarding. Some people choose to favour fun over anything, and like in any MMO (massively multiplayer online game), the best way to have fun is playing games with friends or your guild. Dungeon runs with your friends provide social interaction and are definitely helpful over the long-term for your gold stack! 

Our initial runs exposed a few (expected) issues: the game sometimes crashed, didn’t recognize our modern video cards, and was incompatible with our current login system. That first pass also couldn’t support any of our modern security and anti-cheating capabilities. Clearly we had a lot of work to do to make WoW Classic live up to the Blizzard standard of quality, and deliver the experience players want. 

A demo of the game was available at BlizzCon 2018, and was downloadable on home computers for anyone who purchased a BlizzCon ticket or virtual ticket. The servers became available when Opening Ceremony started at BlizzCon 2018 and was set to end on November 8, but was extended until November 12.[4] Players started at level 15, and the only available zones were Westfall and the Barrens.[5] It was based on patch 1.13.0, essentially patch 1.12.0 ported to a modern infrastructure. The first day of the demo, there was a playtime limit of a cumulative 60 minutes with a cooldown of 90 minutes, applied through the BlizzCon Exhaustion debuff.[6] The debuff was removed on the second day of BlizzCon 2018.[7]
The leveling guides on my site are essentially speed leveling guides.  My leveling guides are the same guides I use myself to speedrun to 60 on new servers to get 60 server first.  I list many occasions where I tell the player to "die on purpose" to go faster.  I tell the player to skip certain quests, because some quests are just not worth the time/XP.  I list tricks and shortcuts to go faster so you can reach level 60 much quicker.  I am still constantly going through them over and over again perfecting the guides to make them faster and easier to follow.  For the most part, the guide can be followed without the need from other player's help, as the whole guide was made from a solo run anyways.  Although I do list quests that can optionally be done if you have a group.

Finally, a new stat I'm adding to this round-up: the number of moderator actions performed for the past 30 days! We performed ~6,000 actions 60 to 90 days ago, ~11,000 actions 30 to 60 days ago, and in the past 30 days we've performed a whopping ~19,000 actions. That's a lot of permabanned plebs, let me tell you. I assure you, the rumors of power-tripping mods hell-bent on getting our jollies from holding power over an internet forum is really, really true. Especially u/Undoer. But for real, y'all have unleashed the biggest zergling rush of posts and comments I've ever personally had to deal with, and we're a squad of about four Firebats in a bunker with one SCV doing our best to hold this ish down... wrong Blizzard game, but you get the point.
Nov 15 We ordered vanilla not vanilla with sprinkles 1. Sharding/Phasing was not a part of the classic experience. The launch surge and often times overwhleming population fighting over quest mobs and loot was impactful on a human level which brought people together to make parties so they weren't fighting or made people bitter rivals. And that ten minutes you spent competing with people to loot that bucket before it despawned for another few minutes was intense. 2. Loot trading was not a part of the classic experience. Ninja looting was a real thing, a crime you could commit which united the community up in arms against you, blacklisting you. That's a feature for modern WoW, not genuine classic. This is a recreation. Not a remaster. Not reforged. We ordered vanilla, not vanilla with sprinkles on it with modern hand holding baby coddling streamlined bogus. That's more suited to your modern WoW playerbase, not the millions waiting patiently for the game they knew and loved over a decade ago. I don't want to sound like an entitled brat, but when you advertise a product, don't change it behind the scenes. Please Blizzard, don't add these things. They kill aspects of what made classic wow such a special phenomenon that rallied people to make private servers in its honor. I'll go play one if this isn't authentic, because those unofficial servers would be more authentic.Rhystael95 Nov 15
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience.
Nov 15 Little Test on Class Quest Rewards Hey guys, I did a little test on certain class rewards to check whether they are adequate or not for the level they are obtainable. Paladin - Verigan's Fist is a famous weapon, added probably during the Naxx patch and lot of paladins remember lasting it for long time. Obtainable level is like 22, with party of same level players. And the Mace is equivalent to a level 26 Blue Mace. This means it's not bad! Warrior - Brutal Hauberk is infamous warrior chest. It is obtainable at level 20(as I remember), but it requires running a level 28+ dungeon. And it's mediocre - it compares to a level 24 blue, which is stupid. Whirlwind Axe is a famous warrior weapon which requires a nanny. :D You get level 30 and then pay people money or beg them to help you. This is not even doable with normal party until 35ish. Whirlwind Axe is equivalent to a 35 level Blue Axe, which is decent but still seems to be forcing it. Unless you hire a nanny, being social will probably help you get it at around 35-36 with similar level players. Warlock - Enchanted Gold Bloodrobe is pretty famous. I am not sure when it is exactly doable but is comparable to a level 35ish Robe. I think the verdict is that Paladin's Hammer is by far the best and the reason for it is that it was added later, at the end of vanilla, when Blizzard had more brains. :DHolylr1 Nov 15

My general (unfounded) suspicion is that mob damage tables are mostly correct, but there is some sort of mitigation/damage reduction occurring that has yet to be explained. The only way the tiger could do regular damage to a higher armour Tips and 1-3 damage to joana is if there is some mitigation occurring for joana and not tips, or if they are on different shards/layers and for some reason the stats are different between the layers (extremely unlikely/impossible), or the tiger in the joana clip just happens to be born with a disability. But I should probably leave the baseless conjecture to the experts.
Nov 15 Dual Boxing in Classic I was seriously thinking about being a masochist and playing a paladin in classic but then I wondered if dual boxing will still be possible in classic with the change in engines running the game. I've never dual boxed so will have to research how it works. However, it hit me that I can dual box a warrior and a priest then transfer the priest to my main account at 60 so I will have the best tank and best healer in the game to play around with. Anyone else planning on doing this and have any good resources to start learning about it?Twiinkedd6 Nov 15
Some players choose to take a slightly alternative approach to their gold farming. This approach can take an extensive amount of time and dedication. Many people choose to train a ton of alts, solely for the purpose of making money and multi-tasking. In World of Warcraft Classic, professions are usually paired together. For example, if you’re training alchemy, you will need herbs to create consumables (e.g. flasks) that are used for raiding. An intelligent and observant player could seize this knowledge by creating one alchemy alt and one herbalism alt, swapping items as needed between each other. This fully mitigates the fees by the Auction House, which means your profit is maximised. Another complimentary combination you can use is skinning and tailoring, or cooking and fishing.
I made some route changes to the Horde levels 43-44 sections.  I have swapped 44 Dustwallow Marsh with 44 Desolace (the entire sections). This allowed me to do Deadmire (at lvl 43 instead of 38) and then go stop at TB to turn in Deadmire + The Black Shield at the same time, then fly quickly to do the Desolace stuff.  Doing 44 Desolace is now mandatory because I think its faster with the new routes. This will also make the level 53 grind much shorter.  I think these were great changes.

Nov 15 Loot trading is perfect for vanilla Loot trading is a good thing. It promotes forming close bonds and guilds. For example, lets say you are in a 5 man pug party, and 3 of those party members are in a guild, or are friends. Those 3 can roll for each other and pass the loot to the friend who wants it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Since in vanilla, all casters and healers want the same loot, and all melee and ranged dps want the same loot, you can always justify rolling to increase your friends odds. Now, if there was no loot trading, then pugs get the same chance as you to win loot, and that isn't right. Vanilla is supposed to be about community and friendship, not giving everyone an equal chance at loot. Sure, some people will be inconvenienced by it, but vanilla IS inconvenient, and slow at times, but we sacrifice convenience for more social interaction, and loot sharing will bring friends and guilds together like never before. Blizzard understands what we want, so that's why i'll be playing classic, and you should too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: The loners who try to get through the game with none having their back will have a harder time, and that's how it's SUPPOSED to be in an mmo. cant you see? This is nothing if not an improvement.Windsheared159 Nov 15
Raiditem owns a top-class raid team who has over 10 years' experience of helping WoW gamers get all the WoW items they want. At Blizzcon 2017 Blizzard unveiled their plan on the development of WoW classic vanilla server, check out the official announcement video on YouTube for more details. As the most trustworthy site, raiditem.com will offer possibly the cheapest WOW Classic items including WoW Vanilla server gold, WoW Classic mounts, WoW legacy servers boe items, and other WoW Classic server service once the Vanilla WoW server officially releases.
Nov 15 Classic Box Cost Disappointed in the decision to bundle the subs and (at least for now) not have a separate Classic sub option. That said, can we at least get a separate box cost for access to classic? It would: - help alleviate temporary bloat and subsequent dead realms - servers would be more stable population-wise over time - remove the bulk of the need for sharding - give a solid idea of how many servers will be needed - allow blizzard to set up a separate classic forum for those with a monetary commitment - with a separate forum group, feedback would be limited to those with a vested interest The subs would still be bundled, but there would be a box cost, akin to what one would have to pay for BFA access. A very good to-the-point post from later on in this thread:... Another good post about how the current setup would necessitate sharding:... A decent (albeit short-term) alternative:...Brokenwind314 Nov 15
I started playing with WoW Classic like a couple months. I would not call my self old school or a vanilla participant but damn much when I began playing WoW Classic has been alot more entertaining than it is now. I didn’t really care about this particular WoW Classic release until yesterday. I am actually hyped to play with this. We see more staff work in the world and participant connections. Folks rarely up set to do anything at the world that is open and seldom speak to each other. Ive gone multiple days where il try to begin convos with players and its literally like trying to start a conversation using a NPC.
Nov 15 Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but... The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced, and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.Hopera237 Nov 15

So we asked ourselves, would it still be possible to deliver an authentic classic experience if we took our modern code, with all its back-end improvements and changes, and used it to process the Patch 1.12 game data? While that might seem counterintuitive, this would inherently include classic systems like skill ranks, old quests and terrain, talents, and so on, while later features like Transmog and Achievements would effectively not exist because they were entirely absent from the data. After weeks of R&D, experimentation, and prototyping, we were confident we could deliver the classic WoW content and gameplay without sacrificing the literally millions of hours put in to back-end development over the past 13 years.
Old vanilla WoW footage and database information suggests durotar tigers should do 6-9 damage before mitigation. There is current beta footage of durotar tigers doing a completely normal amount of damage (5-7) to one person (tips, warrior), as we would expect. There is also beta footage of durotar tigers doing 1-3 damage to one person (joana, hunter). There has yet to be a compelling explanation for the discrepancy. However, most other information and first hand accounts report most mobs doing the amount of damage we would expect, so this appears to be an outlier.
All the work we’re doing will ultimately allow us to recreate an authentic classic experience on a platform that is much more optimized and stable, helping us avoid latency and stability issues. Additional improvements will include modern anti-cheat/botting detection, customer service and Battle.net integration, and similar conveniences that do not affect the core gameplay experience. 

I joined twitch in 2013 with the gamer name of FuriousPaul and I streamed speedruns of the classic Castlevania games from 2013 - 2017. Lately my streams have died down quite a bit due to working on Classic WoW leveling guides every day.  Although I may come on occasionally and play a random game for fun on my Twitch stream.  I talk a lot about WoW speedrunning on my channel, so feel free to follow and hang out to discuss vanilla WoW if you like.  Classic WoW will be my main focus for a long time.  Unfortunately I will have to wait until Classic WoW comes out before I start streaming it.

Our initial runs exposed a few (expected) issues: the game sometimes crashed, didn’t recognize our modern video cards, and was incompatible with our current login system. That first pass also couldn’t support any of our modern security and anti-cheating capabilities. Clearly we had a lot of work to do to make WoW Classic live up to the Blizzard standard of quality, and deliver the experience players want.


Before work began on World of Warcraft: Classic, it was only possible for players to experience the original World of Warcraft by using private servers, which are illegal, often have stability or corruption problems, and generally are very imperfect recreations of the authentic World of Warcraft experience. As much as Blizzard has been aware of the desires of their community, until recently it seemed impossible for them to emulate Classic servers due to the technical hurdles of essentially having to run two massively multiplayer online games side-by-side. A breakthrough was then achieved that made it possible to run Classic servers on the modern architecture of current World of Warcraft servers.
Nov 15 C2C interview with Theloras aka ME Hey everyone, Earlier today I spent some time with the Man, the Myth, the Legend who is Countdown to Classic and we spent some time discussing what I and many other Paladins are most looking forward to in the upcoming WoW Classic demo that will be available during Blizzcon: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/325334774 Since it looks like just Elwynn Forest for the Alliance and Durotar for the Horde will be available to play/test during the upcoming demo/beta, only early level gameplay will be possible to test at any length. But even with that limitation, a major core mechanic for Paladins will be able to be tested and theory crafted. I am of course referring to JUDGEMENT STACKING which I outlined in the thread below along with several other mechanics/talents/items that are still lingering and unanswered questions: Proc Items + Spell Dmg + JotC stacking? https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760205815#post-1 TLDR - I found actual Vanilla era evidence (posted in the thread above) which stated that all ranks of each individual Judgement stacked with one another - Judgement of Light (JoL), Judgement of Wisdom (JoW) and most critically in this case, Judgement of the Crusader (JotC): With pvp gloves, libram and 3/3 imp JotC = +829 holy damage JotC R1 +79 Holy Damage JotC R2 +90 Holy Damage JotC R3 +113 Holy Damage JotC R4 +148 Holy Damage JotC R5 +182 Holy Damage JotC R6 +217 Holy Damage Since rank 1 Seal/Judgement of the Crusader is learned at level 6 and rank 2 is learned at level 12, if Elwynn Forest ends up being the only zone open for testing, then reaching level 12 is definitely doable from quest turnins and XP from mob kills. Which will allow 2 Paladins to join as a group and coordinate each of them putting up rank 1 and rank 2 of Judgement of the Crusader accordingly. If this proves to be correct, then it would forever change the LOLRET Meta with the simple fact that the more Retribution Paladins you have in a group/raid, the more powerful each of them then become and would also allow other class/specs come to the forefront as well namely Discipline Priests spamming Smite. At any rate, the twitch interview link is above - we had some audio technical issues at the start so if you fast forward to the 5:00 mark - you can hear the full interview. PS as a bonus, later on in the interview the Crazy OOMkin named Keftenk makes a special guest appearance :) https://twitter.com/count2classicTheloras111 Nov 15
I now have a Patreon Page where you guys can support me while I work on Vanilla WoW leveling guides every day.  I appreciate all of you who support me on there, it means a lot to me right now.  Doing this full time is taxing on my financial situation.  My goal is to make the best Vanilla WoW leveling guides on the web and the donations keep me going at it healthfully.  There is also cool rewards you get in return for donating.  Thanks!
Nov 15 To all of you who keep talking $$$ Please do explain why a company should waste money to appease you ? I commonly see things like "zomg blikky made 12 bazillion dollars last financial year" "haii why so cheap daddy blizz, please release 500 low pop servers on release , so you can spend the next year wasting money and resources " Grow up. Thanks.Azerothian30 Nov 15
Nov 15 Classic is too easy for 2019 playerbase I'm not big on gameplay changes, really I'm not but... The game is just too easy for today's standards. I really think some of these raids and instances need a serious increase in difficulty. MC is a joke, most of the tier sets are unbalanced, and a lot of seasoned players agree but fear the toxic Classic community to speak up on this issue.Hopera237	Nov 15 
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